Monday, May 11, 2009

Break from hardcore raiding

This morning I made the announcement that we would be transitioning from a hardcore 25man guild to a casual 10man guild.

It stings. I play this game to raid; I will always be a raid healer, it's what I love. But it got to the point where I was spending every spare moment doing my Taz devil impression, whirlwinding around to try to keep everything running, to keep our heads above water. It's definitely been a labour of love.

Unfortunately, I had more faith in my team than my team had in themselves. A handful of them decided that we couldn't keep going (despite the fact that we had a very successful raid week). And we all know what happens then - it snowballs as more and more people decide that if we've lost 1 person, we'll lose more, and then more, and it becomes a race to see who can leave first - because nobody wants to hang around when things get messy.

Some people did us proud. They stuck around, despite telling me that they would like to find another team. They were committed to seeing things through and finishing what we started. Unfortunately we couldn't do that.

Other people just jumped and didn't look back.

And others took it that one teeeeeeeeny step further into "unhealthy e-rage" territory, leaving me love notes to discover in the morning:
...f#$k you, now im actually gonna help tear your pathetic excuse for a guild apart.

srs game... is srs.

I guess I am quite naive and old fashioned, I tend to think of this game as a really pretty chat interface - this is a social network to me. But to others it is purely about winning, about loot, about colouring in their achievement panes.. and it doesn't matter who they step on or step over or leave behind to do that. That makes me sad, because I count all of my guildmates as friends, so when they jump ship without a word, it does hurt.

I think in most cases it is probably embarrassment though, that people feel they can't hang around anymore. I would be lying if I said I wasn't angry at them for being quitters. If they had held it together for just two more days, things would have been dramatically different. Two days.. but they quit and walked away.

I don't hold grudges though.

Well, unless you turn your personal issues with me into a vendetta against my entire guild. That pretty much gets you stricken from my Christmas list indefinitely.

So for me.. it's time to go casual. Kick back. Breathe. Take a break from pushing 20-odd people up a hill when they really didn't want to be going up the hill at all.. they just wanted an easy ride to the picnic at the top.

I have to stop using so many lame analogies.

Time to farm, finish reps (finally got that darn Cenarion rep done), fish, do 10s, heroics, dailies. Blog!!! I've missed you, blog.

I need a holiday, and intend to take one soon.

Last night I had my first good night's sleep in weeks.

I chose the name Inexorable. At this point, the people who left are probably laughing and thinking it is an ironic name. Personally, I think it is more fitting than ever.


Niniel said...

I'm sorry to hear those people let you down. I agree with you that it's a social network where you are supposed to have fun and overcome challenges together...create memories even.

Good news that I get to read more posts from you again but promise to take that vacation and don't push yourself too much.


Keeva said...

I'm a little worried that a lack of 25man raiding will be a problem for my blog, since I mostly set it up to help people with druid healing in 25s. But I'm sure I can adjust.

The truth is though, all this stress made it so that I had no time or energy to even think about blogging, and that made me sad. Even if I'm posting about nothing in particular, I want to be posting.

I think eventually I'll want to go back to 25s. Luckily my gear is quite good, I already have 4 pieces of Ulduar gear.. so when the next content is released, it should be adequate for that.

But who knows what will happen between now and then.. for now I just want to enjoy the game for once!

Anonymous said...


sorry to hear the news, however only a little bit suprised to be honest cause i've seen it all before (raided since good 'ol ZG!).

sometimes you just can't dodge those raid guild killing bullets.

get back to enjoying what you do. i might get to levelling up that shaman now too.

wish you all the best in your casual endeavours, i'm sure you'll still find a way to fulfil your hardcore needs


Keeva said...

Thanks Kriz - good luck on Yogg :D

I was thinking of bringing my NE druid over, I haven't seen all the alliance places in Northrend yet. Might be fun to play alliance every now and then, I miss it.

Kayeri said...

Keeva, I am so sorry... sometimes those guild implosions just build momentum and can't be stopped. but at least you are minus one source of stress now.

Take it easy, get back to enjoying the game, and rebuild. You may not get that server first Yogg kill, but you will get back to doing things you enjoy, and I have no doubt you will get back at some point.

As for the people who take the game so horribly seriously as to leave you those kind of notes, well, try to brush it off and go on, if you have a means to report them, I would do that. This is a game, its not worth that kind of behavior.

Definitely take that holiday, get some rest and relax and come back refreshed for new challenges. :)

Kayeri said...

and btw, my husband did say you should come over to our server (Doomhammer-US) and when I told him you were a Tauren druid in Australia, he said you should just roll an Alliance toon here... ::giggle:: That's my hubbie for you. :) But you'd be welcome if you did. :)

Stompalina said...

That's always a tough call.. and it happens with changes in content, direction, feelings about guild members, etc...

We are always looking for great players to join our amazing group on Staghelm. I you are open to a transfer, we would be honored to have you!

Whatever you end up doing, good luck, Keeva. We love hearing from you in all of your adventures in Azeroth and number-crunching. lol

David said...


It's easy to say don't worry, don't take it personally, but the reality is you invested a lot of time in the activity

I reckon if your true to yourself you can only win.

When you think about any other team activity you always have a break.

5-6 months of football, then its time to catch up with your cricket mates.

some of the people i played with would've drove me to hard core alcoholism if i had to see them 52 weeks a year but 20 was a nice number.

Wow doesn't seem to accommodate that break.

Enjoy your time. Let people who share similar believes and values help you enjoy it.

Your core of 10 casual will become 10 raiding. Once that builds who knows what will happen.

This is a time to find out what people are really made of.

If you set the the culture those that like your culture stay.

good luck

love the blog

Anonymous said...

yeah i've never levelled a horde past 17 so i could pretty much say the same.

my feral kriztoi is lvl 71 and loitering in darnassus waiting for you to come join her. just send me a mail when you're up for a casual 'alliance' night lol. i can teach you the way of the boom, and you will learn to love it


Anonymous said...


You did well in the situation you were left in. I agree it's sad that people have to turn nasty when they leave - I'll never understand that.

Im in need of a fishing buddy, perhaps we can go fish in IF a bit and talk taurahe in front of all the wanna be alliance toons :)

See you in game.
- Moojoos

Cullie said...

Heya keeva,

LONG time reader first post :) I have been properly raiding tree since launch of Wotlk (was tank for vanilla) your blog has helped me so much and is what made me what to give up getting smacked around and start healing :) Sad to see your not doing what you love but please carry on blogging after all you owe us the last part of the healbot comparision hehe :P not letting you away that easily. Anyway all the best for you and your guild.

Azjol Nerub (EU)

Anonymous said...

Sorry to hear it. You have been a great help to me as a raiding tree, and hope you get yourself back to 25 man raiding sometime in the future.

Although it does seem like they are jumping ship, I would try to see it from their point of view too. It is partly about your friends, but people are paying to have fun, and for a lot of people, raiding and succeeding is what they like to do. You can tell when a guild has passed that point of no return, and as harsh as it may seem, some people want to get out of there, instead of going down with the ship - so to speak.

Then again, I understand how it feels from a leadership point of view, like your friends and guildies have betrayed you adn the guild, but try to see it from the other point of view too.

Regards, and thanks.


Kae said...

Personally, I'm in a "hardcore" 10-man guild, working on Yogg. It was drama that lead my guild to be formed, where a core group of raiders, raid leaders, officers, and former guild leaders decided to give up better purple pixels for better sanity :)

Maybe you'll find a similar situation, where you and those remaining can continue on from the ashes raiding progressively as a 10-man, without all of the overhead and drama associated with herding 20+ cats. Fewer people cuts down on the cliques and loot arguments quite a bit, though those 12-15 people running your raids need a good amount of dedication and a lack of greed.

Either way, good luck, I hope all turns out well for you!

Keredria said...

Sorry to hear about all the drama Keeva. I'm looking forward to seeing more posts from you. And as a more casual 10 man raider, welcome to our world. :)

Anonymous said...

I'm so sorry to hear about the guild Keeva, that really stinks =(

At this point, you should do what makes you happy. If you want to take a break and raid 10s, you absolutely should. If your heart is still in 25 man raiding, then the right thing may be to find a new home for 25s.

If you just want a place to hang out, we would gladly give you a home! However, I strongly suspect the time difference would mean that you spend a lot of time online alone =)

Whatever you decide, I do wish you the best of luck! And just remember to make yourself happy! That is VERY important!!!


Nek said...

Sorry to hear about your guild as it was an shock to hear you guys suspending hardcore raiding right near the finish line, I absolutely agree with your assessement of Naxxramas being the beginning of the end of hardcore raiding as we know it as we find a lot of players these days don't understand the virtues of resilience in toughing out the fights in Ulduar.

- Nek.

[A]Andromeda\ Caelestrasz.

sylly said...

sorry that things fell out from under you for a bit. It's so disappointing that people weren't able to hold it together. At any rate, what you now have is a core of tried and true, dedicated friends. In my experience, that sort of comraderie is a magnet that draws others. I have no doubt that if you all decide you want to go back to 25s that it will happen. You'll draw the players you need to you. Best of luck and enjoy the relative downtime in the meantime. I'm looking forward to reading your posts about fishing =) /smoochies

Aertimus said...

You already know I love you. I cried. My husband said "She can come here... oh wait... she's a horde..."

But I'm feeling less fluffy bunny hugging feelings and more like enraged Aertimus is enraging after reading what that one person said to you. Some people (not most, but some) are so ungrateful and have no clue how hard guild leaders/officers work to keep guilds and FRIENDS together. Let me know if I can punch anyone in the US for you.

Keeva said...

@Kayeri - you're right, sometimes it is just inevitable. Sometimes I think that guilds have a best-before date on them; not necessarily a use by date, but a best before. You can either choose to keep going, or move on. I am too loyal to the guild to simply walk away, so going "casual" is my choice - where other people preferred to find a new team. Who knows what will happen down the track.

@Stompalina - the number crunching part made me laugh.. and your guild tag is so appropriate for me at the moment.. I'm finally getting to sleep for a change. Protip: if you start having nightmares about your guild and running it, it MAY be time to scale things back.

@David - I think you're right. I haven't really had a holiday for a long time.. the last time I went away was March 2007, and since then I have been playing seriously, and helping to lead the guild a lot more for the last 6 months. We split up once before and reformed, and we've been through three periods of trying to keep things together while the raiders are getting restless/bored. But I always felt that I couldn't really take time away because I'd be letting them down. I'm definitely overdue to go away somewhere :)

@Kriz - I can't stand playing boomkin, I'm sorry :( I've missed feral so much though!

@Moojoos - we did what we could to keep going. In the end we just lost too many people to keep trying, and I had to make the call that we were done. Yuck. But I'm trying to look at the positives.

@Cullie - thank you for the kind words! I definitely do owe that last part of Healbot, I will have to whip it out and get familiar with it once more. I haven't forgotten it, I think about it all the time! Now I'll actually have some spare time to put it together. I'm looking forward to having more free time to myself.

@V - I do understand the need to go where you can raid. I had to make the same decision back when I rerolled horde. Seeing other people raid or progress when you can't is very frustrating. I am mostly just disappointed in the people who deliberately burned their bridges on the way out, or couldn't do us the courtesy of a short goodbye. It's not nice to log on to discover people have just disappeared (not even left the guild.. just.. gone). I would be lying if I said I didn't feel betrayed by some people.. but even so, I still understand their reasons.

@Kae - that is what I'm hoping. Towards the end it felt like we were dragging around 10-15 people who didn't really want to be there, or didn't really have the same attitudes and standards as the core. It was exhausting. I'm not sure who we have left or what shape we are in to jump into 10s, but I would love to get in and do achievements and hardmodes, so we're not just sitting around. At the same time though, I don't want to make any grand plans or claims that we're shooting for Algalon, because I don't want people to start feeling hassled after just recovering from the 25mans. We'll see.

@Keredra - I used to love doing Kara. 10 mans are honestly my favourite sized group - I SO miss 10 man Stratholme, that was so cool. But because 25s are supposedly the pinnacle of raiding, and I always strive to be the best, that is where I have always aimed. Now that raid content is identical for both sized groups (well, the encounters are the same but tuned differently), then I can still see all the content. I can still work towards hard modes and achievements. So 10s may satisfy me, who knows.

@Beru - Thank you :) I used to play on a US server, and while I loved it and my guild, it did drive me a little bonkers that I could only raid on weekends. Trust me, I wish I could play on US - the recruitment is soooooo much better - being an Oceanic guild is a real handicap when it comes to finding a decent pool of applicants. Horde, too. We basically picked the worst combination: Oceanic, Horde, PvE. But you do what you can. My main problem is being so competitive - if our guild had been #45 on the server I think we would have been okay; but pushing for (and maintaining) server first spots puts so much extra pressure on everyone, especially if a chunk of the guild doesn't care about being first.

@Nek - I feel very strongly about Naxx. I understand that Blizzard wants to tune the normal raids to be easily accessible to all of the more casual, time-constricted players.. but we literally went in there in our greens and a few level 70 epics and cleared the entire thing in just over one night. Not only does it take away the sense of achievement, but it also sets people up to expect easy kills always. I remember wiping on bosses for weeks, and it was just par for the course. Now, if that happens, it seems some people think something is wrong and start thinking about finding a guild who isn't "failing" on the boss. I don't want to be negative but I do think this is the way things will be from now on. The challenge is gone, and the ranks of the true "hardcore" (serious) raiders are thinning. I think it is very sad, and it does make me feel less inclined to raid. Hardmodes are simply gimmicks to me; if the normal boss is very easy, it takes a lot of the joy out of it for me. I don't ever want an easy ride.

@Sylly - we'll see. At the moment I am concentrating on reducing my blood pressure! I'm also putting out feelers to see exactly what structure people want for the 10 mans... so I'm not projecting my expectations onto them. I don't want to create a 10 man guild based on what I want and then go nuts in a few weeks because I realise the group had completely different ideas!

@Aertimus - you're a sweetheart <3 I had a bit of a cry myself, partly out of disappointment, but mostly because I hate the idea of everyone scattering. I was not worried about the threats to destroy the guild because deep down I knew it was going to fall down of its own accord - all we could do was our best. The most upsetting part is that I think if people had only held out for a few more days, things would have been completely different. But what's done is done, and as I said above, I am trying to see the positives. I still have some of my friends in the guild, we can still do some raiding, and I will get to take a long-needed vacation (away from the computer this time).

I've updated the website, cleaned up our forums, created some "former member" ranks, and asked who wants to be in our 10 man runs. I need to clean up the guild ranks to simplify them.

We should be back on track (again!!!!) after a few days, when we know for certain who is staying and who is going.

There is a certain sense of satisfaction that the guild is still alive after all the terrible stuff in the last couple of weeks. That's why I'm proud of our name. We might not be raiding 25s, but we're still here.

Anonymous said...

Give yourself and the guild a little break. Introduce fun and games back. Do a few gearing runs. Have 10 man competition runs and cut the hardcore to once or twice a week tops! Then when refreshed go for it again!

The people who read this dont care about your guild being number one. To many readers you are our number one and thats all that really matters!

Your readers arent all hardcore. Many many are social raiders who at best are only 50% through and your posts help and inspire many of us to become better trees!

So c'mon gal get writing again and put some of the fun back in! We want to hear your experiences and tips and knowledge....and most importantly what colour are your lucky raiding knickers? hehe

Much huggage Moo xxx

Kessina said...

Hi there.
Sorry to hear your news and I hope things work out for you and you still have fun in the game. Keeping a team together is hard at the best of times. I agree there are good ways and bad ways of moving on though - we have had our share of both in the last few weeks. It must have been a really hard decision to take but at least you have made it rather than letting things carry on and get worse.

Hopefully you will continue to post and we can enjoy your thoughts.


Corgii said...

Really sorry to hear about the guild, Keeva :( From the forum posts to your blog, I could tell that you really care about the guild and wanted them to help succeed. You're in the same boat I am in now, essentially.

Things are still tough for me, but I like having all this extra time =) It's fun! Take time off, enjoy the game without the stress!

Mystic said...

Sorry to hear that Keeva :( Sometimes raiding breaks are a good thing though. I haven't seriously raided since mid January and to be honest it's been a nice break. Sometimes just being able to sit back, relax, and enjoy other aspects of the game are a good thing :) Good luck! I'm sure people will want to get back into it again soon!

Sydera said...

I'm sorry to hear that things came to a head.

My advice is to take a break for a month or six weeks and then see how you feel about the whole raiding thing. Maybe you'll stick with Inexorable, or maybe you'll move on to a new raiding guild. There are all kinds of things that you might be inspired to do, and it's important to make the choice at a calm moment. There will be pros and cons to either option and it takes a clear headspace to sort all that out.

However, no matter what you're doing, your blog will be able to help and support 25-man raiders. You've got the brains and the experience. I know I've learned a lot here!

Anyway. If you feel like rolling alliance (and moving to the U.S. so you can raid our hours, hee hee) it seems that many guilds will fight over you (including mine). I'd love to raid alongside another awesome druid.

Many hugs!

Anonymous said...

Sorry to hear that it's been going downhill for you and yours these past few days. Take a breather, enjoy yourself outside of the game and see what you can find again when(if) you decide to come back.

If you do decide to go with the 10 man side of things, it'll definitely be easier on the player management side and maybe just as rewarding when you get bosses down...Even if the loot isn't quite as good. If you love raiding for raiding's sake, the loot is only there to get you to the next big boss kill and raid. (imho)

Hope you can still enjoy the game, and even blogging about it in the days to come!

Yane (Yet another night elf) said...

Keeva, sorry to see this happen to you.

I recently walked away from a similar situation although I'm one of those types you mentioned not wanting "to hang around when things get messy."

I guess things like this are happening all over the place because of the new instance.

lissanna said...

@Keeva - You can still blog if you aren't raiding. I always go with "those who can't do - teach!" You have more time for writing if you aren't raiding as much. I can learn everything I need to know about druids just from reading the forums & the writings of other people. I wrote my entire healing 3.1 guide without stepping foot into Ulduar and haven't had to really drastically change it once I got into that content...